This Sunday, Erica and I posted our joint response to some unfortunate comments made by trans man porn star Buck Angel during an interview with Salon, in which he publicly bought into society’s trans-misogynistic victim-blaming narrative that trans women are being “disrespectful” if they do not disclose trans status in romantic/sexual relations with their partner. The following would be the most pertinent quote:
I’m a huge advocate for disclosure, because I believe a lot of people get themselves in bad situations because they do not disclose. For example, trans women who might hook up with a cis-gendered guy and then he goes home with her and finds out she has a penis and flips out and beats her up or kills her. That’s horrible, and I really believe by not disclosing it’s very disrespectful to the other person because they might not be into it and it makes them feel very freaked out about themselves.
Here I would like to elaborate on our previous response, more narrowly focusing on the issue of disclosure and drawing out more fully the implications of the above line of thinking.
In the initial posting, we touched on the case of Gwen Araujo, a trans woman of color who was tortured and then murdered by strangulation in Newark, California in October 2002 by four men, at least two of whom she had previously engaged in sexual relations.
According to the standard narrative of how events unfolded, it was during a party held at a private residence that these men began asking questions about Gwen’s status. One of them then went into the bathroom with Gwen and forced her to reveal her genitals against her will, confirming her trans status. It was this confirmation that preceded brutal violence in which Gwen was beaten on the head with a soup can and had a skillet smashed across her face. The setting only becomes more gruesome when we consider that much of the violence apparently occurred in front of party attendees.
However, there are in fact several conflicting accounts of what actually happened, including some key gaps in this standard narrative.
One of Gwen’s murderers, Jason Chase Nabors, has acknowledged that he suspected her trans status all along. And while he further claims that the others did not realize that she was trans, oddly, in a letter to his girlfriend he acknowledged that he and one of the other attackers had discussed killing her days before the party at which her trans status was purportedly revealed (San Jose Mercury News, February 25, 2003, archived here).
Now, this is odd, because if the sole motivation for the murder is supposedly “panic” in response to Gwen’s status, why was Nabors discussing the murder with his friend days before it occurred? It seems clear that we have either a lie about the motive for the murder (i.e. did one of them desire to kill her before he even realized she was trans?) or we have a lie about the moment when a second attacker realized that Gwen was trans. I quite strongly suspect that the latter is the case, and that in fact at least two of Gwen’s attackers realized, on some level, that she was trans all along.
Now, given that the courts were apparently fully aware of this information, what are we to make of the “trans panic” defense that was used to obtain reduced sentences for those who murdered Gwen Araujo? Let me emphasize that it was not only the legal defense team for the murderers that bought into this line of thinking. In fact, it was the prosecutor Chris Lamiero in the case who is on record as stating:
Gwen being transgender was not a provocative act. She’s who she was. However, I would not further ignore the reality that Gwen made some decisions in her relation with these defendants that were impossible to defend. I don’t think most jurors are going to think it’s OK to engage someone in sexual activity knowing they assume you have one sexual anatomy when you don’t.
In other words, the defense, the prosecution, the public-at-large, and just about everyone down the line bought into the idea of this idea of “panic” regarding Gwen’s status, despite the available evidence to the contrary. What are we to make of this?
The underlying reason for this of course is cissexism, because society wishes to imagine that cis identities represent “true,” normative genders, while trans identities represent purely artificial or “deceptive” genders, and that no heterosexual cis man would ever, under ordinary circumstances, be attracted to a trans woman (i.e. he could only be attracted to her by “deception”). Society wishes to imagine these things, despite the fact that they are not true by objective terms.
The emotional investment that many place on these assumptions is only emphasized by the fact that one writer for an Iowa student newspaper (archived here) actually claimed that Gwen committed “rape” against her attackers; this, despite the fact that the only incidence of sexual violence in this case was when one of the men forced Gwen to reveal her genitals against her will.
As another example, there is the case of a pre-op trans woman in Philadelphia who was transferred from a women’s prison to a men’s prison after she accused a correction’s officer of forcing her to perform oral sex. Following along with the dominant cissexist narrative, the union president representing the correction’s officer made the bizarre claim that the fact that the woman turned out to be trans actually proves that the correction’s officer could not possibly have sexually assaulted her in the first place.
Then there is the case in which a judge in Sweden ruled that intended rape is actually not intended rape at all, based merely on the fact that the woman that a cis man intended to rape turned out to be trans and the intended rapist wasn’t aware of it during the act.
And another particularly damning piece of evidence would be the well-known “comedy” film Ace Ventura, which culminates in a “deceptive” trans woman being publicly attacked and sexually assaulted while a group of police officers look on, eventually retching when her genital configuration is revealed. Of course, this all happens while the audience at home is intended to point their fingers and laugh at this supposed asshole mockery of a woman.
With these scenarios in mind, I would like to recount an experience of my own that happened about two and a half years ago, back when I lived in Toronto:
One evening, a trans woman friend and I decided to rent a movie. We picked something out at the rental store then began walking back to my place along Toronto’s Bloor Street in the West End. Although Bloor is a major traffic artery, there weren’t many people out that Sunday night. However, we passed a man about halfway between the video store and the house. He looked at my friend, and then kind of grinned at me as he walked past, which I interpreted as flirting.
My guess is that this man picked up in my friend’s trans status, and then picked up on mine by association. Note I am only pointing this out to illuminate that “disclosure” was never an option for me in this situation, one way or the other.
At the time I interpreted his behavior as friendly, so as this guy went past I kept my eye on him. When he had passed and he was a few feet behind us, he stopped. I thought he was going to say something playful, so I stopped as well, looking back at him with a little smile waiting to see what he would say.
“You’re a tall woman,” he said as he began walking towards us again, his eyes trained on me.
This was not what I expected to hear, and it immediately took me off guard. Mentally, I recovered to the point of saying, “Yes, I am,” as in, I am not ashamed to be the person that I am. But what he said next took me completely by surprise.
“I don’t like to use a gun, I like to use a knife,” he said while looking directly in my eyes, “That way I can feel everything.”
This man proceeded to act out what he imagined would be my experience of death at his hands. He leaned against the concrete wall of the bank that we happened to be passing when we encountered him; and he convulsed his body, arms pushing outwards, intimating me attempting to push him away as he would drive the knife into my belly.
I was so stunned by this that in the end, I stood there in silence, watching this man’s ‘performance.’ Finally, the expression on my friend’s made it clear: it was time to go.
I looked back at the man defensively as we walked off. He started walking the other way, but his expression never changed as he also looked back, and said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be alone one night, I’ll find you!”
The thing that I remember most vividly about this incident is that the man made unwavering eye contact with me the entire time. Never for a moment did he seem “freaked out” by me in any way; on the contrary he had a smile on his face and joy in his eyes throughout the encounter.
That was at an earlier point in my transition, which is, I think, part of the reason I didn’t know any better how to react than to stand there watching this asshole play out my supposed ‘final scene.’ However, given the knowledge and the experiences that I have obtained in the years since that evening, I now realize the sad truth that society’s cissexist myths hand so much power over to sociopaths like this man. Looking back on it, I can’t help but think: what if I had encountered him alone at a later time? What if I had been alone that night on Bloor Street? If he had dragged me to an alleyway or back to his house, done Goddess-knows-what, and then killed me, would he be able to claim the “disclosure” myth as an alibi?
If society is so willing to believe, contrary to available evidence, that a cis man would never be knowingly attracted to or interested in a trans woman, couldn’t this man just say that in the middle of consensual sex, he “found out I had a penis, flipped out, beat me up and killed me”? (to paraphrase one Buck Angel). Given my experiences about how society tends to think around these issues, I can’t help but feel extremely vulnerable realizing that many people would be inclined to believe that that was true, even if there was evidence that contradicted that narrative.
So we see that what’s happening in these situations: there is an unresolved tension between the imagination of a cissexist society that heterosexual, cis men are only attracted to cis women, and the real-world fact that heterosexual, cis male sexual attraction to trans women is far from an uncommon phenomenon. Given that this larger cissexist imagination often emerges from voices with greater power in society, that tension tends to be resolved by assuming that such attraction never happens, and that even if it does, it is the just the result of some “deceptive tr*nny,” who probably deserves whatever violent “retribution” she receives— even in the case that this violence was never retributive in the first place.
Now, this isn’t to say that there are not instances in which a cis man does discover a woman’s trans status “in the moment,” then reacts in a violent manner. But this is to say, first of all, that the “disclosure” myth hands this man respect and power that he does not deserve, in the form of a ready-made, socially palatable alibi for violence against a woman with whom he willingly decided to engage in sexual relations. And secondly, given that this hypothetical cis man is indeed attracted to a trans woman, we cannot allow ourselves to buy into the cissexist imagination that she has somehow “disrespected” him merely by accepting or encouraging his very real sexual desires.
The fact is that regardless of what this man likes to imagine about himself, or what any of us might be inclined to tell ourselves, he is indeed attracted to a trans woman. That is an undeniable fact, and there’s no manner of obsessing, or fidgeting over it, and certainly no amount of blood splattered across the wall that is going to change that. So from the point that the man realizes that he is in fact attracted to a trans woman, he has two choices: get up and leave the room if he so desires, or else get the fuck over it.
There are no other socially valid responses, and no trans woman is obligated to disclose anything at any point under any circumstances unless she so chooses.
If a man is truly determined that he should never sleep with a trans woman, then he does have another option: he can ask up front every woman with whom he shares sexual attraction whether or not she is trans. Given that trans women are already widely discriminated against, it makes no sense to place the onus on us in these matters.
So in the end, we may see the irony in the fact that trans women are often referred to in internet slang as “traps;” that is, as deceptive beings that exist only to lure unsuspecting heterosexual cis men. On the contrary, it is the disclosure myth that is in fact a trap: designed to make trans women vulnerable almost no matter what we do.


34 comments
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September 18, 2012 at 3:19 pm
illecebra
I think you are conflating two things here: the (correct) assertion that there is *no* excuse for violence other than its use in the defense of self and/or others, and the (incorrect) belief that being transgendered “doesn’t matter” with regard to mate selection in particular.
Part of the mating dance is learning about one another. I understand that some people won’t want to be with me because I am polyamorous, or pagan, or a geek. That’s fine with me! I’m not compatible with everyone, and I’d rather be with someone who groks me anyway.
I would *never* consider sleeping with someone who didn’t know I was poly, because our society doesn’t exactly prepare people to handle that. A lot of people just plain can’t deal with it. There’s something wrong with me if I put my desire for it to not matter ahead of someone else’s right to decide what he can/cannot handle.
I adore my differently-gendered partner, but I also recognize that being with someone who’s not cis is different than being with someone who is, and that the society I live in really doesn’t prepare one for this. If not for several transgendered friends, especially one I saw through a difficult transition some years ago, I would not be able to handle the relationship I’m in now.
I knew that my partner was not cisgendered when we got together, and we have talked more than once about if/how that would effect things. My partner *never* makes me feel like asking questions or needing to figure something out will be read as rejection or judgement, so I not-infrequently ask stupid questions and my partner answers them and we move on with life. That is a *huge* part of what makes the gender stuff a non-issue for us.
There’s nothing cissexist or misogynist about suggesting that one talk about things relevant to partner selection when selecting a partner. Some people just can’t handle dating a transgendered person, and that doesn’t make either party bad, it just makes them incompatible with one another. Some people can’t handle dating members of a different religion, or poly people, or mono people, or pacifists, or vegetarians, or meat-eaters, or martial artists.
My final point is just a nitpick, but it made me crazy the whole way through the article. Your use of the word “disclose” bugs the heck out of me. We “disclose” defects — the lead paint in the house one is trying to sell, the potential conflict of interest effecting a business deal, the fact that you have an STI to a potential partner, and so on. It implies something that makes me very uncomfortable on a gut level — that being trans is a personal defect. Maybe this is the root of our disagreement: I don’t think defects are the only important things to know about when starting a relationship.
I believe that transpeople are, as often as cispeople, decent human beings deserving of healthy relationships and not deserving of violence. I also believe that it is actively harmful not to bring up being transgendered in the early stages of the mating dance. I see no conflict between the two beliefs.
September 19, 2012 at 3:48 am
leftytgirl
Wow, I hardly know where to start.
“I think you are conflating two things here: the (correct) assertion that there is *no* excuse for violence other than its use in the defense of self and/or others, and the (incorrect) belief that being transgendered “doesn’t matter” with regard to mate selection in particular.”
First I never said that trans status doesn’t matter with relation to mate selection. You fundamentally misunderstood my argument.
But in real terms, these two points you mention are *directly* related because cissexist society’s obsessions with trans women regarding the second point are indeed commonly invoked to justify violence against them regarding the first point.
What I am discussing in this article is what I have termed the “disclosure myth,” which is the *false* belief that all a trans woman has to do is carefully disclose her status at some magically ordained moment, and *poof* she will never experience sexual violence or assault as a result.
The flip side to this bogus idea, of course, is that if a trans woman does experience violence (an unfortunately extremely common occurrence, particularly for trans women of color) then she is herself commonly blamed for the occurrence of that violence, oftentimes by invoking the disclosure myth (“yeah, he attacked her cause she didn’t tell him she was a tr***y!”). As I gave examples in this article, the disclosure myth is at times invoked to defend male attackers, even when they actually knew she was trans all along. Further, there are just situations in which there are no good times to disclose simply because a trans woman may find herself in a situation in which she is unsafe almost from the very beginning. For a recent example of this:
http://m.bigskypress.com/missoula/blogs/Post?basename=trans-woman-says-she-was-attacked-by-um-student&day=18&id=IndyBlog&month=09&year=2012
So what I am saying is that in mainstream society there absolutely does exist an “excuse for violence” against trans women, which is the disclosure myth, which itself buys into false ideas regarding the attraction of cis men to trans women.
elaborating on this point, I never said that a cissexist person does not have the right to reject someone, or to exit an encounter, on the basis of trans status. But what I am saying is that when a man experiences very real sexual attraction to a trans woman (he pursues her, he flirts with her, etc.), that man is not in a legitimate position to turn around and say, “Oh no, I’m not into trans women” just because he realizes later that she is in fact trans.
He is perfectly within his rights to refuse to pursue his sexual interests further, but he is *not* in a legitimate position to deny that those sexual interests never existed in the first place.
If you think this is nit-picking, then again you have missed the point of the article, which is that society’s tendency to whitewash cis man attraction to trans women is a core component of the disclosure myth, which is in turn commonly invoked to excuse or justify violence against trans women.
So I am no longer accepting this mythology that a man who pursues a trans woman is not in fact attracted to trans women. If he has a psychological barrier that prevents him from being comfortable with those attractions and he needs to exit the situation, that’s his business. But I am not going to accept the patently false proposition that he was never attracted to her in the first place, because it is trans-misogynistic garbage that is used to justify violence.
Further to this point, let me jump ahead to your second to last paragraph:
“My final point is just a nitpick, but it made me crazy the whole way through the article. Your use of the word “disclose” bugs the heck out of me. We “disclose” defects — the lead paint in the house one is trying to sell, the potential conflict of interest effecting a business deal, the fact that you have an STI to a potential partner, and so on. It implies something that makes me very uncomfortable on a gut level — that being trans is a personal defect. Maybe this is the root of our disagreement: I don’t think defects are the only important things to know about when starting a relationship.”
Again, the main point of the article is not disclosure itself so much, it is the disclosure myth. I did not choose the word “disclosure” in this case, society chose it. Society has created a false narrative regarding violence against trans women, and I am responding to that narrative in order to debunk it. If you notice, the word “disclosure” oftentimes appears in quotation marks. That’s because I am quoting society’s demands, not because I myself am invoking this demand on trans women. (Seriously I have to wonder if you read the article at all to not get this point??)
Next I note that you mentioned you were poly as a comparison with a trans woman “disclosing” (or acknowledging, or however we want to say it) that she is trans, saying that you would not be comfortable engaging in relations with someone if they did not know that you were poly.
Question: do you seriously believe that you mentioning that you are poly carries the same or similar implications to a trans woman stating that she is trans? If you think that is true then you simply have a distorted perception of what trans-misogyny is and of the challenges that trans women face.
Seriously, how many people do you know who have been murdered or faced violence on the basis that they acknowledged that they were poly? (it’s absolutely ridiculous that I even have to ask this question.)
Finally, as for your non-cis-identified partner, I had trouble understanding how this was even relevant to the topic at hand. I never said that two people should never discuss questions around identity and work through them together, I just said that I am not going to along with false narratives that are used to justify violence against trans women.
Again, the point is that if a man pursues sexual relations with a trans woman, then he cannot deny that he is in fact attracted to (at least one) trans women. If he experiences psychological discomfort with this fact, then that is not the fault of the trans woman, it is a result of his own internal cissexist mind-set. It is totally abhorrent to place responsibility on her for this situation, and if he further chooses to engage in violence against her in order to “relieve” this psychological discomfort within himself, then again that is a result of his own prejudice; it is not her fault, so please let’s all stop with the victim-blaming shit.
September 18, 2012 at 4:40 pm
shawnsyms
Thanks for a fantastic article, and for sharing your own chilling personal experience.
Frankly, I think the notion of panic is a ruse designed to excuse male entitlement to violence against women including particularly trans women. (The concept has come up over and over with queer men and poz folks too.)
I suspect many cis guys perceive some women they are attracted to as trans or potentially trans while they are in the process of arousal and attraction rather than “after,” and some of them subsequently enact their own self-hate and confusion upon these women — whom they consider disposable and/or appropriate targets for violence.
This functions the same way that for instance street sex workers (and all kinds of marginalized women, and in fact all women, cis or trans) are potentially subject to violence — because they are part of categories of people that some men feel entitled to beat and kill.
Obviously I’m sure I’m not saying anything here you don’t already know, I guess I just wanted to chime in with some words of support.
September 19, 2012 at 8:24 pm
leftytgirl
I appreciate your thoughts, Shawn, and thanks for reading. The points you make in the third and fourth paragraphs are indeed very pertinent to this conversation, and very much part of the larger picture of how misogyny (including trans-misogyny) operates.
The “disclosure myth” that I discussed in the article is indeed but one piece of a larger social mechanism by which women’s bodies are devalued and objectified in order to create the kind of power dynamic that makes it possible for men to believe themselves justified in simultaneously acting out on their sexual impulses while emotionally, psychologically, and/or physically abusing vulnerable women [who might be vulnerable along several potential axes of oppression (as a trans woman, woman of color, sex worker, etc.), or just the one]… or preparing the ground for such abuse. Then, under these oppressive social mechanisms, their bodies and their lives may well sadly become disposable after the fact, out of deference to the power and privilege granted to the heterosexual male sex-gender social class.
It’s very unpleasant stuff, but nonetheless thank you for your comments.
September 19, 2012 at 9:06 am
charismaticsaredangerous
aye, thanks much for writing this. i’m in agreement with you on much/most/all of what you bring up. and in situations like this, my brain likes to work itself to: “ok, so this situation sucks. so where do we want society to be instead? and how do we get there?”
i’d love to get your thoughts on that…
here’s my initial brainstorm:
clearly trans* folks, and trans* women in particular, are subject to some heavy social burdens/actions, and it would be great to get rid of that, to be in a social place where “disclosure” is not a thing, where it’s no big deal that someone is trans*/has non-normative genitals/etc. so is that an explicit goal or an ancillary goal associated with general trans* acceptance? and how do we get there? certainly, talking about it and calling bullshit on people is a very good and important start, but thems are slow going approaches to effecting social change. so what are our other options?
September 20, 2012 at 12:18 am
leftytgirl
Hey, thanks for your comments, and your thoughtful questions.
As for where we want society to be: it’s a good question, and I have to admit I’m not sure if I can answer it 100% off-hand. I do know that I want to see public trans representation, particularly trans women in tv/film roles who are presented like any other person, who can discuss their bodies with other people just in that casual way that some people often do. I’d like to see a program where we know that a woman has a different body type, and she can see that she just interacts with those around her like anybody else (dating, joking, talking, the little things). That kind of representation in media is definitely lacking… and far too often, when there is a trans character, it is played by a cis actor… quite unfortunate.
More than anything, I want to see the language that we use to describe trans people and their bodies de-pathologized. Part of that involves having trans people, and trans women in particular, more seamlessly integrated into the workforce…. so that the people around us feel like they actually have a stake in not being a shithead when the subject of trans people’s lives comes up randomly around the water cooler or whatever.
But underlying all this is a dual issue: which is eliminating misogyny. Because so much of what trans women in particular deal with is little more than a sort of specialized, extra potent dose of that old poison.
Because if we accept the myth that women’s bodies in general are the property of men, disposable, etc., then what does that say about a person who, from mainstream society’s viewpoint, crosses that “line” to live as a woman? If womanhood is already a socially pathologized identity, then it means that trans women will be perceived as having “chosen” that pathologization, hence the disclosure myth, “they had it coming.”
In short, at least from where I am sitting, trans liberation and women’s liberation are inextricably bound up.
September 21, 2012 at 7:57 am
charismaticsaredangerous
you’re welcome! and thanks for taking the time to craft a thoughtful response! much appreciated.
personally, i really enjoy challenging myself to actually put into words the way i want things to be, rather than just thinking/talking about something being the way i want it to not be. it gets my energy flowing in a positive direction. and trans* issues are certainly a case where i need to do this all the time with myself.
i’m with you on all the points you bring up. better representation in media and in general life are both HUGELY important. it’s why i’m trying to be as positively open as possible and taking advantage of other privileges that i have to try and show [through being] as many people as possible that there is nothing wrong, etc. with being trans*.
for me, this particular notion of “disclosure” is really interesting, as i feel a whole bunch of things intersecting at me at the same time, many of them being external to me/my thoughts on my own genitals. it’s like, i’m pretty set and comfortable with my body and so i don’t feel the need to bring up anything in particular to anyone. if someone makes the wrong assumption about what’s between my legs, that’s their mess-up, not mine. and i’m not going to live my life worrying about other people’s assumptions. yes, those assumptions can have consequences in some cases, when violent jackasses are involved, but i also believe that most people are good, nice, awesome people. and i’d like to start off any interaction with someone assuming they’re a good person, rather than a horrible one. [clearly, those are privileged statements in many other regards, and i totally recognize that].
and so no, i won’t ever “disclose” my trans*ness or the shape of my genitals to anyone.
but i also am not ashamed of the fact that i’m trans* or that i am a lady and have a penis [and see no reason to change that]. both of those things are LOVELY. to me and so i’m open about them. but that doesn’t mean i “disclose” them. they’re not secrets that i’m hiding or ashamed of or whatever. they’re just a part of me.
[note: i’m not saying that folks who are explicitly open to potential partners about their trans*ness/genitals are necessarily ashamed of them. what i’m trying to get at is that the notion of “disclosure” is busted in my mind.]
September 19, 2012 at 3:48 pm
pasupatidasi
the sort of impossible situations that the cis-priveged, binary gender encoded societal paradigm imposes upon us all scares the shit out of me for my daughter.
if things don’t change much in the nine or so years left til she is an adult, these horror stories could happen to her, as they have happened to friends of mine, and hosts of other women.
my child has never identified as male, and by the time she is eighteen will have been living as the girl she is for all but the first three years of her life. so how is she deceiving anyone if she leaves out the detail (of what she considers) her birth defect?
why does cis-gendered, straight society believe it to be their right to know about intimate things such as what is between the thighs at birth?
how gross!
i don’t insist upon knowing about their hidden physical anomalies!
anyway…great writing here, altho scary
September 20, 2012 at 12:42 am
leftytgirl
Thank you for your thoughts, and here wishing nothing but the best for you and daughter.
September 22, 2012 at 4:58 pm
pasupatidasi
she’s taught me so much about life!
September 19, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Masha Sabina
Here’s another reason to disclose trans status, especially if you’re a trans woman; for cisfemale victims of severe sexual abuse at the hands of cismen, the only sexual relationships that feel safe are with other women… specifically, the presence of a penis is in fact the trigger to invasively violent memories. Any thoughts on this?
September 19, 2012 at 11:47 pm
earth & stars
No, that’s a reason for the cis woman to be up-front about her deal-breakers.
September 20, 2012 at 1:02 am
leftytgirl
“the only sexual relationships that feel safe are with other women”
Well, first of all, just in response to this one snippet, I would emphasize that trans women are women.
In response to your comment as a whole, I would first of all state that your concerns about cis women who have been abused feeling comfortable in new relationships is quite important, and I do not want to diminish that. That having been said, I do question putting all that down to the presence or absence of a dick. And to say that a part of my body (and I do have one) is inherently linked with abuse and systemic oppression is a very pathologizing thing.
Let me put it this way: while statistics are not always easy to come by, there’s a widely accepted consensus that trans women (especially trans women of color) are the group most vulnerable to sexual violence and abuse in our society.
Hence, are you really willing to shine a spotlight on already abused group of women, and say that because they might have a certain body part, they themselves are inextricably bound up with the violence and torment that they themselves are actually more likely to experience than anyone else?
I hope you can understand that that is an extremely frustrating and psychologically damaging social space to be forced to inhabit.
In that vein I would say that the root cause of male violence against women is not the presence of absence of a penis. On the contrary, it is the presence of male privilege that is the problem.
September 21, 2012 at 7:59 am
charismaticsaredangerous
you mean “with other women who have vaginas”? news flash: not all women have vaginas. and that’s totally ok.
September 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm
Molly B.
Anyone who is presenting themselves to the public as female should fully understand the ramifications of what that entails in our society, particularly if that person is packing a penis. I think violence of any sort is despicable, and especially violence spurred solely by hatred, bigotry, and ignorance. But all women have to make choices about our own safety and practice situational awareness at all times, period.
With that in mind, it would then seem to intentionally place oneself in situations where one is likely to invite grievous bodily harm is playing a very dangerous game. For a woman, walking down a dark, deserted street alone at night in any city is risky and probably inadvisable if it can be avoided at all, no matter what your genital status. But purposely seeking out and dating heterosexual men as a pre-operative woman born transsexual without first relating to him up front your gender status (preferably in a well lit area with lots of people around and a predetermined exit strategy if things get ugly) is downright foolhardy. Ideally no one deserves to be the target of any sort of violence or abuse because of their gender, but this is the real world and jesus h., people need to show a little freakin’ common sense!
There are many things we have to suffer and give up as a result of our unfortunate birth defect. Sadly, no matter how many years you have been living as female or whether or not you have ever in your life identified as male, as long as the penis is still present then the dating game with heterosexual men is one of those things- unless you are content to be completely open about your transsexual status and choose very carefully those with whom you associate with as romantic or potentially romantic partners, and hope you have chosen wisely someone who is at least open-minded enough to politely decline rather than violently attack you. For pre-operative transsexuals or non-operative transgender people, there is no other alternative. For post-operative women it becomes an entirely different issue belonging to a different discussion altogether.
September 20, 2012 at 2:55 am
leftytgirl
I have to admit I let out a frustrated *sigh* halfway through this when I realized that you were writing this as a trans woman.
What you are saying here is basically that you buy into what I called the “disclosure myth” in my piece above. That is, you are buying into the demonstrably false belief that simply by “disclosing” her trans status at some special, pre-ordained moment, a trans woman will insulate herself from the possible of physical harm. But the fact is that the real world is not so simple.
There may be cases in which no good moment to disclose exists.
There may be cases where an okay-ish moment exists, but she waits thinking there should be a better moment later on. But, suddenly something changes and things take a bad turn. If she is recovering mentally/emotionally/physically/however, should we then go back and nit-pick at her and tell her, oh so subtly, that she fucked up and that she brought this all on herself?
Then there may be cases where a trans woman is in danger almost from the very beginning, and there is just very little that she can do it.
These cases are real, they happen. For an example along these lines, I will re-post an article that I posted in one of the other comment replies:
http://m.bigskypress.com/missoula/blogs/Post?basename=trans-woman-says-she-was-attacked-by-um-student&day=18&id=IndyBlog&month=09&year=2012
What you are doing, when you say things like, “Oh, she should have known better” or “she should have handled the situation differently” you are placing the blame on her for violence that was committed against her. You are adding to her misery, not subtracting from it.
Other scenarios: what if she just honestly isn’t that clever about reading into these things? Should we blame her even though she honestly can’t help it? Or, here’s a novel idea… maybe we should blame the man who attacked her. Maybe we should make sure that society learns that rape culture and unchecked male privilege are what enable rape and sexual violence against women, including trans women.
Instead of asking ourselves “What did she wear?” or “when did she disclose?” maybe we should be asking ourselves, “Where did he get the idea that he had a right to her body? That he felt justified in touching her against her will? That he felt he could harm her because she was trans?”
If you think that’s not possible or feasible, then all I can say is that you are incredibly cynical, and basically you are saying game over, patriarchy wins.
The hell with that.
“There are many things we have to suffer and give up as a result of our unfortunate birth defect.”
Speak for yourself. I was not born with a birth defect of any kind; I’m exactly the woman that I made myself to be, the woman that I was lucky enough to be born as.
September 21, 2012 at 8:07 am
charismaticsaredangerous
PLEASE DO NOT SPEAK FOR OTHER TRANS*WOMEN
sorry for the scream, but this kind of stuff really, really, REALLY goads me.
if you believe you have an “unfortunate birth defect”, that’s totally fine. i’m not going to tell you how to conceptualize your life/your body to yourself or anyone else. and all i ask is you do the same in return.
nothing about my body is defected or unfortunate. and my life’s timeline is not measured against a surgery of any kind.
and believe me, i have plenty of common sense.
September 22, 2012 at 8:43 am
erica, ascendant
“For post-operative women it becomes an entirely different issue belonging to a different discussion altogether.”
as a woman who is trans who has an innie, no, no it doesn’t. it changes the dynamics and risks of disclosure, but it’s not an “entirely different issue” and that screams shaming over surgery status, which is really not okay. your obsession with “the penis” later on certainly shows this and i love how the assumption is that someone’s partner is always a heterosexual man and that heterosexual men somehow have a special status…this really sounds like HBSer BS, especially with the genital shaming goin’ on in here.
“With that in mind, it would then seem to intentionally place oneself in situations where one is likely to invite grievous bodily harm is playing a very dangerous game. For a woman, walking down a dark, deserted street alone at night in any city is risky and probably inadvisable if it can be avoided at all, no matter what your genital status…”
…except i do that every night coming home from work or school. this is victim-blaming. women, like men, need to get from point A to point B, and the fact that i am a woman does not invite violence no matter how much you try to couch it in that lovely term of “common sense.” “common sense” says i have to get home at night, which means walking down a dark, sometimes deserted, sometimes populated street. do tell me, am i to be the prisoner of my house when it’s not daytime? am i to refuse to take classes or work shifts which mean i go home in the dark?
September 21, 2012 at 12:35 pm
The Other Point Of View
Zinnia Jones mentioned this on FreeThoughtBlogs. Now, let me just say I don’t agree with opting for trans ops, and I really get that people find that backward and bigoted. I accept that.
With that out the way, on FtB they made clear the fallacy of putting it all on transpeople to disclose. Now, having read the absolutely horrific details of Gwen’s story, yours, and others, I’m now firmly in the camp of “It’s not the transperson’s issue, and therefore not their job to disclose.”
Hopefully as more see the light, blog posts like these won’t be necessary.
September 21, 2012 at 12:46 pm
leftytgirl
Hi…
“I don’t agree with opting for trans ops”
could you please clarify that statement? I think I know what you mean, but I don’t want to respond without being certain.
September 21, 2012 at 1:14 pm
The Other Point of View
It means I don’t believe one should change their gender through surgery. I wouldn’t do it myself, I wouldn’t encourage my children to do it.
I realize that is offensive, but I don’t hold that conviction strictly for that purpose.
Long and short, I totally understand if you’re right and truly disgusted with me and since this is your blog, I’ll refrain from posting anything else should you ask.
September 22, 2012 at 9:25 pm
leftytgirl
Well, regarding your comments so far, I don’t think you have said anything out of bounds. This blog is meant to be something of a safer space, particularly for trans women, but not necessarily the safest space in the sense that I want to allow for open dialogue and debate on reasonable ideas. So there is some leeway in that, and in fact earlier this year I posted an article in which I allowed some pretty vitriolic stuff through… however, I learned the hard way that it accomplishes nothing trying to dialogue with people who say such extreme things except giving them an outlet for their hate.
So what I would say is just don’t try to argue anything that pathologizes anyone else’s body or anyone’s identity. If you’re opposed to something related to some part the transition process or something like that, you can *state* that; however, I don’t have much interest in hearing arguments around that, and I certainly do not want to see any personal attacks on trans people on that basis (doing so could result in comments not getting though moderation, or being banned entirely from the site).
That having been said, I’m glad to hear that you’ve thought through the implications for and burdens placed on trans women by the dominant “disclosure” narrative. Violence is almost unquestionably legitimated by placing this burden on us.
September 23, 2012 at 10:51 am
The Other Point of View
Completely understood. Just to make it clear, I am a Christian, so I’ve been taught from a young age that you have absolutely no right to share your ethical convictions unless asked. You certainly have no right to share them if someone says “Look, I don’t want to hear it.”
About the violence, I’ve recently become an active protester against violence against gays and transgenders. I honestly don’t know why we can’t simply label violence against them a hate crime and a felony across the board.
The first time somebody gets 25 years with no parole for assaulting a transperson, I’m reasonably sure it’ll give somebody pause before attempting it again.
September 22, 2012 at 12:37 am
amber
Just a small observation. You cant change your gender with surgery. I have never changed my gender in any case and I have been female from birth. I always regarded – like many do – the non female aspects of my body to not only be defects but disfiguring defects that required correction. Be careful, this idea that all trans people embrace or even could embrace the idea that their birth bodies are acceptable is false and dangerous.
September 22, 2012 at 2:08 am
leftytgirl
I think you are interpreting my statement in one of the comment replies a bit narrowly. I don’t pretend to be speaking for all trans women on the question of whether or not our condition is a birth defect, or a psychological defect (many have argued of both sides of these two) or whatever, and actually I’m not sure I have a strong opinion on the question, at least not in this context.
But in fact, whether it is a defect or not, we can still take pride in ourselves. For comparison, consider deaf culture… I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject, but I do know that many deaf persons take great pride in their cultural and artistic history. I see no reason we cannot a similar pride in ourselves, including our perseverance and our ability to overcome oppression.
So yes, I was lucky to be born the woman that I am… even if my journey as a woman has been a bit more complex, still I can take pride in that and the unique insights that it has afforded me.
September 28, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Tsipi
In Israel, one of the four statutes under which a person can be convicted of rape is “rape by fraud”; the law states that if sexual relations occur following fraudulent representations, and would not have occurred sans those representations, that sex is considered rape. A few years ago a trans man was charged with rape (also with impersonation, indecent acts/assault, and conspiracy to commit a crime) for carrying on romantic relations with girls without disclosure. The case was presented as a “woman impersonating a man”, no recognition of trans status. A conviction of attempted rape and conspiracy was entered following a plea bargain. (I’m not familiar with any cases of a trans woman being similarly prosecuted, but OTOH, under Israeli law a man cannot be raped (there are sodomy laws, but they are different), yet I imagine that the same “logic” would apply).
Just thought this would interest you, because while not germane to the violence/panic issue, it goes straight to the heart of cissexist attitudes — whether or not grounded in law — that enable and excuse the violence. And certainly goes well with your list of examples.
September 29, 2012 at 2:01 am
leftytgirl
Hi Tsipi,
Thank you for this comment and drawing attention to this point. I wasn’t aware of this case you mentioned involving a trans man who was convicted of “rape by fraud,” however, as soon as you mentioned it I was immediately reminded of another case that I read about in Israel involving a Muslim man who was often perceived as being Jewish. I don’t think he ever lied about his religion, but he made friends with a Jewish woman and they had sex, then later she found out he was Muslim and had him arrested. I believe that it was under the same law that you mentioned, though maybe I am not remembering the details here correctly, it’s been a while since I read about it.
I wonder if you have any more information about that, or any thoughts on how these things might be connected?
Certainly the case of the trans man you mentioned is itself relevant to the present situation. I wonder if you have a link to the story?
September 29, 2012 at 5:26 am
Tsipi
I couldn’t find an English news item on the trans man story (his name is Chen Alkobi or Alkoby, maybe you’ll have better luck), here is a blog post that includes the story as it was distributed at Tel Aviv Pride 2003 http://www.qualiafolk.com/2011/12/08/kvisa-shchora/ (about halfway down). There are lots of items in Hebrew if that interests you (let me know). Here is a legal analysis by professor Aeyal Gross in the Harvard law journal discussing four US/UK/Israeli cases resulting in conviction based on gender misrepresentation, which includes the case http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlg/vol321/165-232.pdf
The Arab man you mentioned was indeed convicted under the same law (I guess properly translated to English as “rape by deception”). He misrepresented himself as unmarried and as Jewish, while he was actually married and Muslim. The verdict was rather racist, but the defendant, Sabbar Kashur, admitted he lied about his status, his basis for appeal was that consensual sex is not rape, not that he hadn’t lied. His sentence was reduced from one and a half years to 9 months in prison, but the law itself was not challenged (that can only be changed in the legislature). Here is one good English article, I’m sure there are many others http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/man-will-appeal-prison-term-for-lying-during-seduction-in-jerusalem/.
September 30, 2012 at 10:04 pm
aaa
Here is the story http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/from-rape-to-racism-how-and-why-did-charges-change-against-arab-man-1.314319
October 1, 2012 at 11:32 pm
Anagramarama
I’ve never understood the trans-panic defense. At the heart of it they are saying “I can’t control my violent urges in the face of things that make me question my manhood/heterosexuality so therefore you should excuse what I’ve done and/or reduce my punishment.” It seems to me that this should have the opposite effect. Like when this defense is brought up it should tack on an extra x years to the sentence to keep this clearly unstable individual off the streets.
October 5, 2012 at 2:33 am
leftytgirl
You make a good point, which I think illustrates the extent to which society is willing to go to maintain the protected heterosexual cis man sex-gender class.
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